In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Metta Beshay, a filmmaker, musician, and creator known for his citizen-scientist approach to ethnobotany and plant traditions. Metta explores misunderstood substances, Indigenous cultures, and the realities behind modern plant-medicine tourism with humor, skepticism, and deep curiosity.
We touch upon topics of:
- Metta’s path from viral videos to ethnobotany storytelling (03:30–05:00)
- The realities of the Amazon jungle vs romanticized ideas (34:00–36:30)
- Indigenous cultures, tribal politics, and modern monetization (07:30–09:30)
- Comparing Aya experiences with other altered states (26:00–28:00)
- Music, icaros, and sound as a healing tool (19:00–24:00)
- Spirituality vs skepticism and cultural context (38:00–41:30)
- Ethics of retreat culture and shaman training (43:30–45:30)
If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com
Find more about Metta Beshay on YouTube and Instagram at @MettaBeshay
Transcript
Metta Beshay: It’s not something I think a lot of people like to admit, but some people’s icaros are better than others, and some people, their icaros are annoying. Yeah. Dude, the jungle’s fucked. It’s just this crazy place that’s super deadly, and then you’re out there and you’re like, “This sucks.” And then you have these bugs that will bite you.
The mosquitoes alone are just 70% of why it’s miserable. When I smoke DMT, and I’ve done it so many times I cannot count, it’s that same exact feeling, which is a weird psychedelic it feels tryptamine-like, but is warm. There’s this feeling of warmth that I really can’t describe. Does this plant give you the pow- mucha dijra, it’s the plant of good hunting.
Does that actually make you be a good hunter? Yeah, I’ve done almost all the opioids and opium, straight up opium in the, from the desert and all that. That’s fully addictive.
Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast dot com.
Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with me, the host Sam Belyav. Today I’m having a conversation with Meta Bashay. Meta Bashay is a filmmaker, musician, and documentary creator who has built a massive following by d- by diving into world’s most misunderstood substances. Known for his citizen scientist approach, Meta recently traveled to the heart of the Amazon to peel back the layers of the global ayahuasca industry.
His work bridges the gap between deep ethnobotany and the modern mental health movement, challenging us to look past the marketing and see these plants for what they truly are. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.
LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Meta, welcome to the show.
Metta Beshay: Dang, that was a good intro. Okay, sick. Thank you.
Sam Believ: Yeah, thank you. Pleasure to have you on. Y- I stumbled upon your video like a few weeks ago, and now we’re talking. That’s pretty cool. I’m, Yeah … I’m glad you you found time.
Your videos are really fun to watch, so we’ll definitely give link to people in the end to find you. Thank you. It’s like your style is… It’s kinda adventurous, but at the same time you provide s- provide science, a little bit of comedy. I really like it. And it’s interesting, you’re… In person, you’re exactly as your…
on your videos. So I know it’s like- … your personality.
Metta Beshay: What what, Do you interview anyone who’s like a different, like when you interview them, they’re just like a completely different personality?
Sam Believ: There’s one way people… Yeah, a lot, most people, they have There’s one way they talk in person, and there’s the other way they talk on interview.
It’s kinda like there’s this slightly enhanced persona always. I’m pretty sure I do it myself. Oh. So it’s very interesting to see when it’s like-
Metta Beshay: Exactly the same …
Sam Believ: yeah. Cool, man. So let’s start with your story. What… Why did you decide to make videos about ayahuasca and other plant medicines?
Metta Beshay: I… my channel blew up because I got big for doing one video. It w- I had videos that were bigger before it, but I had one video that was like trying the best legal highs. And it like got a ton of views. I don’t know, I don’t know how many, it’s like well over 2 million at this point, I think.
And I think I kinda had a decision. It was like, okay, I could be like the drug guy on YouTube, which I feel like every era of YouTube has a drug guy. But the problem with being the drug guy is that it often doesn’t end very well, or it like, it’s just not a very, it’s not a way to be taken seriously.
So I was like, okay, let’s transition a bit to ethnobotany a bit, because I love like culture and history, and that’s what the content I used to do before I did like substances. So then I just kinda transitioned into like ethnobotany, and then fell in love with like the stories of like Richard Evan Schultes.
That’s a recent thing. I’m just like, oh my God, this whole world of like these guys just living in the Amazon is insane
Sam Believ: Cool story for you. Did you know that Richard Evans Schultes actually traveled to Colombia first before he even went to Peru?
Metta Beshay: I actually didn’t. I thought that he… Was he mainly in Peru?
Sam Believ: No, he was b- before Peru, he was mainly in Colombia. That’s what I thought. A lot of people don’t know. Because what happened was Colombia was this Colombia was the center of ayahuasca and psychedelics, and that, that’s where Dennis McKenna and,
…
Sam Believ: McKenna brothers went to. I actually interviewed Den- Dennis McKenna recently as well, and because this was the core of it.
But then narcos happened, and because of that, all of the sort of psychedelic tourism was redirected to Peru.
Metta Beshay: Oh.
Sam Believ: And even to Costa Rica, and it’s interesting because it doesn’t even make any sense because Costa Rica doesn’t even have ayahuasca traditionally, but-
Metta Beshay: Exactly …
Sam Believ: anyways, you definitely have to come to Colombia.
But tell us about your ayahuasca experience in Peru, ’cause I, I saw the video. It’s it was very like- … basically like in the home of some guy. And like, how was it? Did you get any healing from it or…?
Metta Beshay: I know this is the Ayahuasca Podcast. The, the trip was very little about ayahuasca for me.
I did ayahuasca and I was like, “Okay I’m here to do ayahuasca, I was actually originally there to do another plant but the plant ended up being kinda lame, so I was like, “Okay, I gotta transition to ayahuasca.” What was it? It was kunuwaspa.
Sam Believ: What?
Metta Beshay: Kunuwaspa. It’s like a, it’s a sh- it’s a sage plant from the Shipibo that’s like, it’s dripped into the eyes of women to see the designs of the Shipibo.
And the designs of the Shipibo are, like, famously very psychedelic, and so I was basically told “Hey, go out there, do a story on this stuff because it might be psychedelic.” And- … so I went out there and I went they dripped into my eyes for a week straight. Nothing. Because- So I was like, “Oh, that’s not a story.”
Sam Believ: Maybe ’cause you’re not a woman.
Metta Beshay: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. I, but I… It’s so funny. I asked… Yeah, that was a whole other story, ’cause I asked a lot of Shipibo about it, and everyone was, like, laughing at me. They were like, “You think that kunuwaspa is psychedelic? That’s insane.” “No, not at all. That’s hilarious.”
I’m like, “Oh,
Sam Believ: oops.” You still had a good story from it,
Metta Beshay: yeah.
Sam Believ: And obviously, if you didn’t make a video about ayahuasca, I would not want to invite you to the podcast,
Metta Beshay: Yeah.
Sam Believ: Tell us about you went to the jungle what… You saw indigenous people and- … people expect them to be, wearing like loincloths or feathers and- how were you surprised there?
Metta Beshay: No, so I’m… the, i’m Egyptian and I’m like, I’m Coptic Egyptian from like South Egypt, so like we’re called Saidis. And we’re also like, indigenous and blah, blah, blah. I assumed- The world is pretty westernized. I kinda figured that people would have regular clothes. That’s not, that wasn’t really that shocking to me.
I think what was more shocking to me was The, the finances of it, the fact that th- they… It’s become normalized for Amazonian people to monetize their tribalness. They’ll amp up their “Oh, see. Look at, I’m wearing peacock feathers,” and it’s like, “Bro, no you don’t.
You have the brand-new iPhone.” What are you talking about? But I think also the thing that was, I think, more shocking, I think, not even shocking, was really interesting to me, was the, What… How do I say it? The tribal politics. It’s just so fun. I was with Shipibo people, and then I would be like, what other tribes around here?”
And then they’d be like, “Okay, there’s Achuar over there.” And I’m like what are they like?” And then they’ll be like, “Oh here’s this stereotype.” They’d be like Achuar women are kinda seen as they’re the baddies,” right? But then Achuar men are kinda seen as kinda machismo, and it’s oh my God every person has their own, sorry, not Achuar. What’s the tribe that I’m talking about? It’s not Achuar. It’s another one, but there’s a ton, and it’s just very interesting to me that there’s so many stereotypes, and even the people who are literally neighbors, like the Cacaotaibo and the Shipibo, who are, like, historical neighbors, they don’t know a lot about each other because there’s no reason to go and hang out with each other, and in fact sometimes they have wars with each other even though they’re next-door neighbors.
It’s very interesting.
Sam Believ: Have you ever heard about them having shamans having spiritual wars against each other while they’re all on ayahuasca at the same time?
Metta Beshay: I’ve heard, I have heard with what’s the oth- what’s the DMT I think it’s a seed or something that you snort. It’s not ne- Yopo?
Yopo. I’ve heard yopo but that was not through my experience there. That was, like, some YouTuber who was like, “Yeah, you’re doing-” “… spiritual warfare.” Is that a thing that… Hold on, actually, are there Shipibos in Colombia or no?
Sam Believ: No, Shipibo is m- proven. In Colombia, you have eight or nine different tribes that work with ayahuasca traditionally.
Metta Beshay: What are the tribes, or what’s the main one that white people go with?
Sam Believ: Inga, Camsá, Cofán, Siona. There’s more. I’m always forgetting the names. Of course. They’re all very difficult to remember.
Metta Beshay: But, is there a certain tribe that most, like when gringos come, they go to work with that tribe usually?
I
Sam Believ: think the most common ones is the more popular ones for medicine are Cofán and Inga. I work with an Inga shaman because they’re, like, for example, Rythmia, this sort of very popular ayahuasca tree, they have an Inga shaman, and Cofánas are very popular locally. But they’re both really deeply connected with the medicine for thousands of years.
Yeah. I’ve even interviewed people that said that ayahuasca comes from Colombia, but of course- It’s a little tricky to say because it’s gonna ruffle some feathers.
Metta Beshay: Yeah. It’s also- what we- It, y- it comes from a lot of different tribes of different, like-
Sam Believ: Yeah …
Metta Beshay: it, and it predates Spanish Inquisition, so it’s like-
Sam Believ: Yeah
Metta Beshay: You can’t really put a location.
Sam Believ: Here in Colombia they have this thing, it’s oh, like arepa is from Colombia. Arepa is this cornbread that’s round.
Metta Beshay: Okay.
Sam Believ: And Venezuelans are like, “No, arepa is from Venezuela, obviously.” Y-
Yeah. But if you really look, go back, they used… Before, when arepa was created, there was no Colombian, there was no Venezuelan.
Exactly. Exactly. There was people doing it. It’s a, it’s just a very simple way to eat corn. Yeah. So it’s like, it’s a, it’s e- it’s a pretty obvious design that people would probably come up with, m- whichever way. But I worked with a shaman once, and he was like, “I don’t wanna start ceremony at 9:00 PM because that’s when everyone starts, and there are these shamans.
I don’t wanna meet them let’s start later.” Because of- … because of that. They, it’s almost radio- It’s like the radio waves are too busy. It’s better to do it later when everyone’s asleep,
Metta Beshay: yeah. I, we didn’t- There’s definitely some- … talk about that, but we did talk a lot about I talked a lot about the philosophy of an icaro.
Which is icaro the same thing with the Inga as well?
Sam Believ: No so there’s a couple differences between Colombian tradition and Peruvian tradition. First one is they sing icaro, and every shaman has their icaros, but they only do it in the beginning of the ceremony and then during the cleanses. They rarely do it in the middle of the ceremony.
Instead, in the middle of the ceremony, shaman sings medicine music, which is basically like a more formal songs with lyrics. Sometimes in- Oh, that people know … the indigenous. Yeah, and sometimes in Spanish. But then it’s like there’s guitars, sometimes there’s flutes. It’s a bit more … The music is, let’s say, it’s a bit more advanced.
Metta Beshay: Yeah.
Sam Believ: It’s pretty just the music itself is pretty concert-like. You as a musician I think would appreciate that. You should definitely come by. We have a cool band here as well.
Metta Beshay: That’s sick.
Sam Believ: … Yeah. And then the second difference is there’s less of a focus on dieting plants, but more of a focus of purges.
They still have all the same plants, but they take them mostly to purge, like intense purging. And there’s like 20 different types and “Oh, you take this one if you have this, and you take this one if you have this.” There’s still … They still do some plant dieting, but mostly it’s “Okay you wanna go deeper?
Go purge on this,” like stuff that makes you go blind- … for two hours. I recommend, by the way, it’s really good, it’s called chicha.
Metta Beshay: Okay.
Sam Believ: It’s terrifying, but people feel amazing afterwards. You should make a video about this. This would be really interesting.
Metta Beshay: No, I think I might, actually.
That, that might be a good reason to go to Colombia about purges, ’cause they do purges in … Some people do purges in Shipibo tradition, but it’s also not everyone does, and it’s also just … I think that the funny thing is there’s the an- there’s the traditional way of Ayahuasca, and then there’s the modernized way that’s not necessarily bastardized with m- like gringo monetization.
But it’s the way that everyday Shipibo, like a Shipibo family does it, is very much “Oh, let’s have a family trip,” and let’s … like for example, one of the fam- one of the sons, he was taking a trip and he’d never left the country before. And so before we held a ceremony for him, and it was just us in a circle, like, doing Ayahuasca, like talking about our feelings type shit.
And it was like- Yeah … so it was … They, I think in that case it would be like, why would you do a … we don’t need to purge. We’re just trying to set you off for a good trip to Argentina, where he was going, right?
Sam Believ: Yeah.
Metta Beshay: But yeah, the purges are, like, a thing. Yeah … and I was terrified. I was like, “I really don’t wanna do that.”
Sam Believ: The, the other difference is that- the ayahuasca is two ingredients, right? You cooked it, I saw it in your video. But- Yeah … in Colombian tradition, they have they use DMT shrub called chagropanga or changro.
Metta Beshay: Is it psy- And they cook- … psychotria viridis? It is, it’s the same… Is it the same plant?
Sam Believ: No. So s- diplo- Diplopterys something.
That’s the name.
Metta Beshay: Oh, got it. Yes. The
Sam Believ: psychotria viridis is chacruna, and chagro- chagropanga is Diplopterys cabritana or something like that.
Metta Beshay: Okay.
Sam Believ: And they, some people say it’s a different kind of DMT, which is more intense, whatever. But I think if you do a blind test and people try Peruvian ayahuasca and Colombian, no- nobody c- actually can tell a difference.
Metta Beshay: Yeah. Have you done Peruvian ayahuasca?
Sam Believ: No, never. I really wanna try, but I’ve… I started here and I just never had a chance.
I definitely… i’m just waiting for the invitation. So it’s interesting about the indigenous people. You can have a shaman and he can be wearing feathers and singing chants- and look prehistoric.
Metta Beshay: Yeah.
Sam Believ: And then couple hours later, he’s on WhatsApp.
Metta Beshay: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. With a
Sam Believ: new iPhone.
Metta Beshay: But I think also, I was very clear in the beginning with that ’cause they were trying to do that with me. And I, in the video I talk about it. ‘Cause they’re like, they were trying to be…
they put on the Shipibo clothing and they were like, oh, they were hitting me with the, “My Shipibo name is this.” Mi- Miyaki Hawakuskarataniki. They’re hitting me with
all the stuff to give me experience, and I was very blunt. “I don’t give a flying fuck. I’m here- … to see what you guys are actually like in real life. Stop hitting me with the gringo experience ’cause I just don’t care.”
Sam Believ: It’s also very interesting that you’re from Egypt ’cause a lot of times, starting my first ayahuasca experience and then many times afterwards, I had…
and I’ve seen experiences with Egypt. My first ayahuasca experience- … was all about Egypt. Literally- Really? … pyramids, sphinxes all kinds of stuff. I even had a explicit message that if I go to Egypt, I will receive a gift. I still haven’t went. It was, like, six years ago, probably. So it’s, and a lot of people that drink the medicine, they go to this Egypt realm. It’s all about Egyptian gods. I hang out w- I hang out with the d- Egyptian god with the crocodile head about 20 ceremonies ago. It’s crazy and I don’t know, I don’t know what it is. I have a theory that maybe in ancient Egypt they were tripping on something and they kinda, like-
Metta Beshay: They were.
Sam Believ: They were … smoking DMT. Yeah, do you know anything about that?
Metta Beshay: Yeah. With Egypt, I was talking to some researchers at UC Berkeley recently. And was UC… Yeah, it was UC Berkeley, and they’re doing some research on blue lotus, right? And so we were talking about blue lotus ceremonies, or not ceremonies, but blue lotus use in ancient Egypt because it’s all but completely almost extinct in Egypt now.
But with the blue lotus samples, they actually found mandrake, mandragora samples in, and mandragora is, I think it’s in the Solanaceae family. It contains sc- scopolamine, so it’s the same thing as toe. It’s the same thing as datura. It’s like the Solanaceae family has a ton of that, that fucking scopolamine d- like deliriant bullshit.
And yeah, so you will trip balls similar to Amazonian people who are also tripping balls on toe and scopolamine derived plants.
Sam Believ: Do you reckon ancient Egyptians were tripping on something when they’re building pyramids?
Metta Beshay: No. I think historically what we have record of is that it was like, I forgot the proper term for it, but you know how like in a lot of countries like Korea you’ll have a mandatory service, like you have two years of mandatory service to your country in the military?
That’s what I think the, is the best, like what Egypt- ancient Egyptian historians say, is that it was like a two-year or whatever amount of time that y- the regular Egyptians had to contribute to working for the king to build these pyramids for the, the king, Khufu and Sneferu and, the crew.
I was really into ancient Egypt. Bef- I did ancient Egypt content before I was into psychedelia
Sam Believ: Yeah, I think there is definitely some kind of connection. I would like to figure it out. But there’s definitely s- spiritual significance to megalithic structures.
If you were to take ayahuasca at top of the pyramid, I’m sure you would be, like, extra tripping, or maybe inside of
Metta Beshay: it.
Yeah. But yeah. Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised. Yeah. Yeah, the ancient Egyptians were- They used to dump… As far as drug use, I think we have record, I think potentially it was opium, blue lotus, potentially mandragora. And peyote I sadly do not know. Caffeine was in, was I- probably after, ’cause it was, like…
Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But yeah.
Sam Believ: So you went to the jungle. You mentioned Icaros, right? As a musician, ’cause I know you’re also a musician.
How was it for you? Were you inspired to create your own? How-
Metta Beshay: … Would you say? I talked to a lot of people about Icaros. Icaros are so funny.
One, it, the i- the idea of an Icaro was very foreign to me at first, ’cause I was like, “Oh let’s learn an Icaro.” I thought Icaro was just their word for a song, right? And then it took a while, it probably took two weeks for me to realize oh no, Icaro is in-the-moment thing that you do that is inspired by the person and the trip and all that kind of stuff.
But I, I, but I was really I was really interested in the actual technical musical stuff of it. I was like, okay, I think the first thing I was like, “Okay, what scale are they using?” And the first guy that I was listening to his Icaro he was singing in a penta- a minor pentatonic, right?
And I was like, “Oh so it sounds like your guys’ like, traditional scales are minor pentatonic,” which is just my assumption. But then I listened to another Icaro, and it was not a minor pentatonic, and it was a completely different time timing type of thing. And what I realized was it was like, oh, because everyone listens to modern music now, there’s no way to really try to get what, what old pre-colonial music sounded like at the time.
So I was just kinda oh, it’s just kinda like this inspired thing. And the funny thing about talking to a lot of people about Icaros was that it’s not something I think a lot of people like to admit, but some people’s Icaros are better than others, and some people, Icaros are annoying. Some people, I’ve heard some people be like, “Yeah, this one shaman or curandero, she was just really whiny.”
“Eh.” And then they were like, “It just ruined the whole trip.” And I’m like, “Yeah, that makes total sense.”
Sam Believ: Yeah. Interesting, like my seventh ever ceremony, which is about, yeah, probably about five years ago.
I was in Ayahuasca ceremony. It was in the jungle, I was in the hammock, and I went to this super deep trip where I was, basically, my understanding was that it was revealed to me what the universe, mechanism of the universe is, like what’s under the bonnet. The
Metta Beshay: hood.
Sam Believ: Yeah. What’s under the hood. And there were some entities and they were showing me around and they said “Yeah, come in, check it out. We’re very busy.”
And as I was doing it, I was singing Icaros. People told me I was singing Icaros. I don’t remember any of it. So they say that at some stage, if you keep drinking medicine the medicine will not for every people, but I guess some people who, whose path it is, they’ll, it’ll put you on a shamanic path.
Ah. And when it happens, it gives you your Icaro. And so I’ve been on this path for a long time and I organized the retreats, but I never really… I’m not a shaman, I’m not even trying to be one.
Metta Beshay: Yeah.
Sam Believ: But it’s been coming to me, like different kinda learnings
Metta Beshay: and, Do you listen to the Icaros in the indigenous language, or do you listen to it in Spanish or your own language?
Sam Believ: No. So my shaman, his Icaros are mix of 50% Inga language and- That’s- … 50% Spanish. Yeah, I can recognize some words.
Metta Beshay: Yeah. Other,
Sam Believ: like- Medicina.
Metta Beshay: They’ll throw in a medicina, a poderoso medicina, and then they’ll hit up there. Something like this. Yeah. Yeah. Or
Sam Believ: Cura and some- something like that from the- Yeah … the typical, the usual sus- suspects. But mine are always just sounds. There, there is no letters. I think that-
…
Sam Believ: I think that the, it’s more about the intention and the certain sound. So for last couple ceremonies it’s like the Icaros kind of made reemergence in my life and now I’m actually kinda remembering them.
I recorded it, and mine sounds like a lullaby.
Metta Beshay: Ah.
Sam Believ: And normally it comes to me in the ceremony where I’m in a really low place. Like I’m in a, I’m very in, in a lot of pain. It’s very intense trip. I start tapping my chest, and then I start like singing an Icaro, and it starts like vibrating my body and putting it, putting my trip to a very positive, like e- exalted place.
So it’s kinda I guess- That, at least, and I l- I sang it to people. They’re like, “It sounds like a lullaby.” And I’m like it’s better than when you said whining.”
Metta Beshay: Annoying whining, yeah. Yeah. And it, but it’s funny that the icaro, like that was one of the things that I learned.
And to go back to what we were talking about like shaman war and all that kind of stuff, was they explained to me, multiple different curanderos explained to me that the icaro is like a tool. Think about it as a tool to basically take you out of ban- bad spiritual mindsets or worlds.
So they, like in their like original creencia, they have their relig- original religion has four worlds, and one of them is called pan- I think Panchinatu, which is the yellow world or the evil world. And sometimes they said you can go there, and the icaro can be a way to take you out. And then sometimes you actually have shamans or witches or not Mushaya.
Brujos. Yeah, brujos. They’ll have people will do witch- witchcraft on you, and then the icaro is gonna s- clean that out of you.
Sam Believ: And do they use guira in the, in the-
Metta Beshay: I didn’t see anyone use anything like that. I wouldn’t be surprised if some other people do. Is that an Inga thing or is that like a Colombian
Sam Believ: thing?
That’s a very common… i’ve definitely seen shamans from… They’ll either use feathers or this, but basically this is to move the energies, and they also sing with it. As they chant- … rhythmically, they move it.
Metta Beshay: Oh.
Sam Believ: And then-
Metta Beshay: It’s an almost an instrument. Yeah.
Sam Believ: Yeah. So because it’s basically like a rattle style sound.
Metta Beshay: Is, what’s the population of Inga?
Sam Believ: I think it’s about 5,000 people.
Metta Beshay: Oh, they’re a very s- wow, they’re a small group. Wow. Do they- Yeah … do they, Holy smokes. Whoa. H- do you know how many communities exist?
Sam Believ: Couple there’s different there’s different like tribal sorta centers.
Metta Beshay: Yeah.
Sam Believ: As far as I know, at least three, three of them.
Have you- Most of them are pretty modern. They just live in the cities now and-
Metta Beshay: Have you ever been to like some like, like out in the, out deep in the jungle communities or no?
Sam Believ: I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s that deep. I’ve never been to places where you like take a boat and then you take a horse ride and then you walk.
Metta Beshay: Okay.
Sam Believ: No, maybe like maximum two, three hours from- Okay … from the main road.
Metta Beshay: Yeah.
Sam Believ: Yeah. No, I, like- But it’s like if you fly a drone, all is jungle.
Metta Beshay: Yeah, it’s
Sam Believ: terrifying. It’s it’s kinda hard to say what is deep?
Metta Beshay: It’s true. No, it’s true. ‘Cause it’s like I was in Pucallpa, which is like deep, deep in the jungle, but it’s a city of 20,000.
And literally you ask any person from Pucallpa, “Hey, have you been to the jungle?” They go, “Fuck no. I’ve never been to the jungle. I’ll never go out there.” Yeah. That shit’s crazy.
Sam Believ: Yeah. So before, before you worked with ayahuasca you s- you smoked DMT, right? So how- Yeah … how was it similar or different?
Metta Beshay: The, the… I found it’s, you know- it’s similar to any drug, that when you change the route of administration, it changes the experience a lot, but it doesn’t change the feeling necessarily. So th- with, like, when I smoke DMT, and I’ve done it so many times I cannot count it’s that same exact feeling, which is a weird psychedelic it feels tryptamine-like, but is warm.
There’s this feeling of warmth and, that I really can’t describe. It’s just a weird warm feeling. Not in an opiate warm comfort feeling. It’s a different type of warmth. But it was that, but then when I compared it with actually drinking Ayahuasca, I think– I just talked to one of my chemistry friends about it.
They said because of the MAOIs in the vine, that’s what causes, like, that heavy sedation, that yawning, that the just this super sleepy f- feeling of Ayahuasca, which I found very pleasant. I like that a lot.
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Metta Beshay: Okay
Sam Believ: This is very new. I haven’t shown it to anyone, but I-
Metta Beshay: Ooh … I’m
Sam Believ: working on a product. It’s called Only Vines.
Metta Beshay: Okay. Oh, okay.
Sam Believ: And it, it- It’s specifically, it’s a play on words, but it’s basically just a vine by itself.
Metta Beshay: Brilliant.
Sam Believ: Yeah. So- Here I have the ayahuasca
Metta Beshay: Oh, not gonna lie, ayahuasca. Oh, I love it. Oh.
Sam Believ: Here, we love that. And then I dry it and I grind it, and I put it in pills.
And when… Because basically it’s legal because it doesn’t contain DMT.
Metta Beshay: Yeah,
Sam Believ: just tell me why. And I, I, and I’ve found the potential, so I experimented on myself.
If I take a few capsules, let’s say I’m, like, in a really bad mood or I’m struggling with stuff, I take a few capsules and it really helps me. So it’s basically similar to mushroom microdosing, but it’s not illegal. So I’m kinda trying to experiment now. I just, I’m just giving bottles away for free to people
Metta Beshay: to
Sam Believ: try and
Metta Beshay: support.
Do you know estimated how much, like, how many, like- milligrams or micrograms of harmala alkaloids, like the MAOIs in
Sam Believ: it no idea whatsoever. But when I was experimenting, the reason I remembered about is because you said this heavy sedation. When I first experimented with it, I ground some up and I made a tea from it, like a teaspoon.
And that’s what I felt, like very heavy in my body, and I was like, “No, that’s too much.” That’s ki- that’s kinda how I figured out the dose.
Metta Beshay: That’s
Sam Believ: dope. But it’s interesting that the vine itself is pretty, it’s pretty trippy as well. People, a lot of people think that it j- it’s just to activate the DMT, which it is, but it’s also, if you take enough by itself, you can start tripping on your own DMT supply.
I don’t know if you know anything about it.
Metta Beshay: Yeah, end- endogenous DMT, yeah. That’s, yeah. That’s that’s really interesting. I like that. But I think Hamilton Morris, I think, when he was in the Amazon, he actually, I think he made in his video two different tinct- like, just teas.
I think he made a tea just of the vine and drank that first, and then drank some DMT chacruna leaves afterwards. But I think w- as he drove it drunk the vine, he actually described it as “Oh,” “I’m, I feel very sleepy.” But I could be wrong about that. But yeah, it’s a, it’s an interesting plant.
It’s… I, yeah. Ayahuasca vine is sick.
Sam Believ: So it’s funny that you compared it with opium. You know- … you don’t expect people trying opium. So you’ve tried opium before?
Metta Beshay: Yeah. I’ve done almost all the opioids and opium. Straight up opium in the, from the desert and all that.
Sam Believ: Was it not, like, super addictive?
Metta Beshay: No, it’s fully addictive. It is… yeah, you do it and you’re like, “Yeah, this is crazy. This is super addictive.” It’s not as good as let’s say oxy or fentanyl, or some chemically derived stuff. It’s a lot more nauseating. It’s not as euphoric. There’s a lot more side effects- Yeah
which is often with plants, but it’s still pretty fucking good.
Sam Believ: So you did it s- just for science purposes, I’m assuming. Just-
Metta Beshay: Sure. Yeah …
Sam Believ: sac- sacrifice for yourself.
Metta Beshay: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Oh, I hated doing it. Oh, I hated it.
Sam Believ: Technically I’ve self-imposed limits when it comes to drugs/medicines.
Ah. And for me, it’s like I’ve o- I would only engage with things that have a tradition of at least 1,000 years or more. So ayahuasca, San Pedro, Opium … ibogaine.
And so m- so basically, technically, I could do opium,
Metta Beshay: you could- For I want … shit, would you do let’s say, an ayahuasca extract?
Or D- have you smoked DMT?
Sam Believ: No
Metta Beshay: You never smoked it?
Sam Believ: No. It’s a self-imposed limit. I can take it off any time I want, but it’s- Yeah … it’s kinda cool because people ask me like, “Oh, have you done LSD or have you tried MDMA?” I’m like, “No. No, I’m just traditional, just the classic stuff.”
Metta Beshay: That’s… ‘Cause it’s a funny one because you can get… Have you ever snorted cocaine?
Sam Believ: No.
Metta Beshay: Wow. Oh, so you really have
Sam Believ: like- Not a single time.
Metta Beshay: Wow.
Sam Believ: And interestingly enough, not for the lack of access to it. When I first came- Oh my God … to Colombia, like I would go and visit a guy at the party and there was like a brick of cocaine on the middle of a glass table, and everyone was like, do it.”
And it’s like, “It’s not addictive.” And I’m like, “No, I’m good.” The next day they do it again and they say they’re not gonna do it again, and they do it again. I’m like no, it’s definitely addictive.” So I never touched that stuff. Coca, traditionally, yes. I have some in my cheek right now. Yep. Pamba.
Metta Beshay: Yep.
Sam Believ: But so yeah, I think the reason, maybe except for opium, generally traditional stuff that’s like, has, has an ancient tradition, you kinda know that not only people did it, but they were…
They did it and they survived to procreate and have a next generation without any genetical mutations.
Metta Beshay: Yeah. So I guess
Sam Believ: it keeps me safe.
Metta Beshay: Yeah I don’t think that’s too far off. I think I have a similar thing about like, when you do the traditional stuff, at least when you try to stick to how it’s originally done, you can somewhat know that humans, naturally we do science and naturally we do “Hey, it’s okay to do it this.
It’s not okay to do it like this.” So when you do it like a traditional way, you know at least thousands of people have tried that way, so you know you’re not fucked. So it’s… I like that mentality. That’s an interesting one. Yeah.
Sam Believ: Yeah, just a safety, just a precaution. So you went to jungle and like people glorify jungle and you said- that it kinda sucks and the mosquitoes and everything. It blows. Can you talk to us about that?
Metta Beshay: Yeah. Yeah. Dude, the jungle’s fucked. It’s funny because I grew up, I don’t know I grew up in an era where like Nat Geo was like the shit, and like I… The, the Amazon jungle is something that you’re raised knowing, like that is it’s the closest thing to, this adventure into outer space.
It’s just like this crazy place that’s super deadly. And like I remember before going there, I was looking up like, “What animals can kill me? What’s the most poisonous this? What’s like the crocodile population?” I was looking all into that. But I was just so excited because you see these videos of these people in here and you get to see life forms that, it’s just amazing. And then you’re out there and you’re like, “This sucks. This is so hard.” This is a hard… it’s rainy one second and it thunders and it’s the rain from hell, and then the next second, it is burning hot outside. You’re getting sunburned instantly and then you have these bugs that will bite you, will…
The mosquitoes alone are just 70% of why it’s miserable. I feel like there… If there was no mosquitoes there, it would be so much more tolerable. But the mosquitoes is just, when you are not adjusted to it, it’s just hell. It’s so terrible. But it, I will say I’ll probably go… I’m going right back to Peru in a couple weeks, in a few weeks to this same area.
And I’ll probably go back in the jungle if I get the opportunity. I’ll complain about it. It is fun. It’s just terrible.
Sam Believ: Yeah. Mosquitoes kinda create constant stress. It’s like you just can’t rest. They’re just at you all the time.
Metta Beshay: How do you deal… How long have you been in Colombia?
Sam Believ: So I’ve been here for nine years, but where, in the area where we are, there’s- … one mosquito a day probably and th- there’s other things- huh … that bite you, like small flies, but it’s not a problem. When you go to the jungle, yeah I really don’t like it because I think for me, if I am being attacked by mosquitoes while I’m on Ayahuasca, for example, it kinda just gives me a bad trip because I don’t feel safe.
I don’t feel- Yeah … I can’t really relax.
Metta Beshay: Totally. No, it suck- and it… Oh my God it’s exhausting. And also, the thing about it, for me when I was there and I was doing it with the family, is that almost all of them have just a, a natural… They they, when they get bit they don’t have much of a reaction at all.
And so they’re not as conscious of how miserable it is to not be them. I’d be in a setting and I’d be like, “Hey, is there mosquitoes?” And they’ll be like, “Yeah.” And I’ll be like, “Guys, please be sensitive to the fact that it’s hell. It’s hell on Earth.” I showed my back and my, my hands to the kids in the community I was in the jungle, and they were all like, they looked in awe like I’d just gotten shot.
They were like, “This is… I’ve, we’ve never seen this before.”
Sam Believ: But you were okay, didn’t get any malaria, any fancy- Nah … dengue or
Metta Beshay: jungle disease? Nah. I got a, I got an infection on my foot that I thought I was gonna lose my foot. I was terrified. But, that was fine. Got, got a random doctor to cut it on my foot.
Sam Believ: You get like a pirate’s foot afterwards
Metta Beshay: You do. Oh, I’ve got the, I have the gnarliest scar on my left foot right now. It’s fucked. Yeah.
Sam Believ: Sorry about that.
Metta Beshay: Yeah.
Sam Believ: Another thing you talk about is like the concept of plant dueno or like-
…
Sam Believ: Different plants have different powers. What, what have you dis- Got ’em
what have you discovered there? Any- anything cool?
Metta Beshay: I think, I think- I think you and me are probably different on this. I’m not very spiritual naturally. I’m almost entirely not spiritual. I have some things where I’m a little bit hooey-wooey, but I’m very much fact…
like in a boring science-y way, fact-based. I’m very much “This is what I can write about as an objective this,” right? So as far as dueños, I think they’re interesting. I think that they can lead you do- down a path of understanding the plant somewhat. But I also think just like saints in, in, in Catholicism, it’s just a way for people to have good luck charms.
It’s like, does this saint actually give you the power of luck or of pregnancy? No. Does this plant give you the po- Like mocha dijrao, which is a plant that I mentioned in the video, it’s the plant of good hunting. Does that actually make you be a good hunter? Probably not, but it probably does because of the lucky charm aspect of it, of the fact that when you rub it on your hands, you feel extra like, “Oh, I’m gonna hit this shot,” and you hit it, right?
So I think it’s just, I think in every culture has it. Like in ancient Egyptian cultures like to this day, Coptics and Muslims will still have some symbols that mean something, like the evil eye, that the evil eye is still something that can either be lucky or bad depending on when it is used and how it is used.
And it just empowers people to be like, “I have this thing on me that gives me the strength that I need in this moment.” I think that’s how I think of dueños. It’s like this, this plant that keeps you in touch. I also, to go on a little bit l- left of a tangent on that, I actually talked to one of the guys who’s a curandero there, and I was like, “Is it ever weird dieting these plants with gringos that wanna become shamans as well?”
And he was like, “No.” And then I pressed him a little bit harder, and he was like, “Yeah, it can be a little weird because the thing about it is that we’re, like, born and raised with this. These plants are not… they’re around us all the time.” It is A- and there’s a context, there’s a cultural understanding that no one except for them can ever understand a fraction of.
And it’s no different of my hometown. If you move to my hometown, it might take you 10 years to understand a fraction of the stereotypes that I understand. If you go to Dallas, the next-door neighbors, right? You’ll be like, “Oh, the stereotype is they’re racist.” But then I’ll be like no.
You have no idea. On this block, this happened to this year.” There’s just so much context that you just have to grow up with it to understand the power of it. And the same thing with dueños. It’s like they can tell me, pion colorado is really good for good vibes, right? But I’ll never understand the full context of what that means to them, even if I study it for the rest of my life, ’cause I’m just not them.
Sam Believ: Yeah, for sure. That’s that’s why I kinda stick with indigenous shamans. I just think that-
Metta Beshay: Yes.
Sam Believ: Precisely … even just the fact to kinda be… If you came up with it, then you kinda deserve to get the benefit of it as well from that point of view. But, Yeah, financially too. Yeah,
Metta Beshay: exactly …
Sam Believ: but there’s a plant that is good for fishers and hunters.
Do you reckon there is a plant that makes people better YouTubers and documentary producers?
Metta Beshay: Methylphenidate and Adderall. I don’t know.
Sam Believ: Adderall plant,
Metta Beshay: yeah. Yeah, the Adderall plant. Or ephedra. I guess there is an Adderall plant. So yeah, the ephedra plant.
Sam Believ: Ephedra. Oh, yeah, that’s… I think you may have…
You talked about, right? It’s a plant that was the inspiration for methamphetamine?
Metta Beshay: Yeah. That’s where meth comes from. Ephedra sinica, but there’s… Ephedra is a genus specie- a, a genus name, so there’s tons of different… There’s Ephedra gerardiana, there’s Ephedra viridis, and they multiple of them have basically the compounds that you can turn into meth.
But alone they are pretty stimulating. It’s pretty methy when you do it alone, just the plant, like a tea. Very
Sam Believ: methy. ‘Cause there was, like, ephedrine, right? Like an allergy drug or something like that, and people use it- Yeah … to make meth from it.
Metta Beshay: Yeah. Hold on.
Sam Believ: Same root basically
Metta Beshay: I have This, this room is basically like a museum of like plants and chemical things that are actually all legal but I just have a ton of just weird stuff. So this is the stuff that people usually used to, in the old days, used to make meth- Yeah … out of, right? Pseudoephedrine. But then this is over the counter still.
This is a- this is asthma. This is what’s… Bronchade, right? So it’s ephedrasulfate ephedrine sulfate, which is in the ephedra plants. You take a pill, this is for asthma, but if you take one of these, it’s straight up like, like methy. It’s pretty methy. I’m like… Sometimes I take them when I like, don’t have like I’m like, I, I took them on my trip because I didn’t have enough of my prescription, and so I did it.
It’s very energizing. Not that you should do it, anyone listening. I’m just saying scientifically, yes.
Sam Believ: I assume you obviously have asthma, right?
Metta Beshay: Yes. Such bad asthma.
Sam Believ: You may or may not have asthma- … for disclaimer reasons.
Metta Beshay: Of course.
Sam Believ: It’s it’s interesting that you talk about shaman wannabes.
So we have,
…
Sam Believ: We’ve had people that come and they do Ayahuasca with us for the first time.
And then they come back three months later with diplomas. Saying “Look, I’m a shaman, I’m ready to work. Let’s do it.” So it’s, there’s definitely this thing. Mostly they get those diplomas in Peru.
There’s a lot of people there that-
Metta Beshay: That’s so Peru … like
Sam Believ: in Peru you can even buy Ayahuasca in the market. In Colombia, it’s still like very kinda controlled, like it’s a little bit more hidden and a bit more respected still. Good. Kinda because the psychedelic tourism went somewhere else. So in a way Narcos protected Colombia from like being overrun-
Metta Beshay: Good
Sam Believ: by, by the psychedelic tourism. Because I think there’s good psychedelic tourism, like responsible, but there’s also just like a taxi driver selling you Ayahuasca. And I think that- Which is
Metta Beshay: half of Peru. That is literally half of Peru.
Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s
Metta Beshay: exhausting.
Sam Believ: And you’re not gonna find it in Colombia.
I just went to the jungle and we’re also doing a documentary. So a friend of mine, his name is Sam Lippman Stern or Stern, he’s he’s a documentary director. He was actually nominated for Emmy.
And his documentary is like one of the best, most seen documentaries on HBO of like 2024,
Metta Beshay: sick.
Sam Believ: And he tried Ayahuasca with us. He got super inspired, now we’re making a documentary. And we went and we tried to find it, and like even on the market where they sell like all the plants, you ask for it and they’re like, “Yeah, like maybe there’s this one guy, but like I’m not sure.” Like they’re still very- and here in Colombia it’s not legal. It’s actually only legal if you have a shaman with a permit from an indigenous council. So it’s kinda a doctor can give you a morph- morphine because he’s a doctor. Like a shaman can prescribe you Ayahuasca. So I think it’s a very legit structure they have
Metta Beshay: here.
That’s cool. That’s way better. ‘Cause in Peru it’s legal literally anyone is a shaman. It’s anyone Yeah And there’s no verification of anything, so that’s cool that there is a little bit of a process of you can’t just call yourself a shaman one day. You gotta be something.
Sam Believ: Yeah. And you also said that you’re not spiritual and that I’m spiritual.
So w- the only- … thing I can tell you, if you continue working with plant medicines or be it ayahuasca or something else-
…
Sam Believ: Give it five years. You’ll I think it’s, I think spirituality is inevitable because w- being born is a spiritual process and dying is a spiritual process and a lot in between.
We’re s- we just- … we’re not really connected to it. It took me a few years of a lot of ayahuasca, but now I just can’t deny it anymore because of the things that I’ve seen. ‘Cause I’m tra- originally I’m an engineer.
And I come from Eastern Europe. There was no religion there basically because it was Soviet Union.
I believed in nothing. I was very
Metta Beshay: dip,
Sam Believ: Ath- atheistic or agnostic. But since I’ve seen so much and kinda unexplainable stuff, like invisible connections between people and paranormal things, and I’m like, I’m pretty spiritual now. I’m I’m afraid to admit.
Metta Beshay: Yeah. I don’t think I fight against it like I used to.
I used to fight against it, and now I think I’ll have a f- spiritual thought,” and I will like, I’ll allow it to be there. But I also think it’s a bit of a mentality thing. I’ve been to I’ve been into ethnobotany shit since I was, like, a kid. I was really, like I was just…
I’ve always been, like, a nerd with this stuff. I think it’s just a framing of mind. I think, like, when people talk about spirituality stuff, I can vibe with it. I can be like, “I understand where you’re coming from. You’re just using different terms that I wouldn’t use, but I think you’re saying the same thing.”
And I think as I age, I just get more sympathetic towards that. So sure, I agree.
Sam Believ: Nice. So let’s talk about ethnobotany. Tell us about your favorite plant finds, whether it’s in Amazon or somewhere else. What are the coolest plants you’ve been-
…
Sam Believ: Discovering or making videos about? ‘Cause I know you’ve done quite a lot.
Metta Beshay: I’m trying to think. The coolest plants. There’s so many. I think my natural inclination is opium, just because I like that one the most, and it’s just cool. It’s s- it’s like useful in a lot of ways. It’s chemically, a lot of chemicals have been derived from it. It’s just really awesome, and it’s also like the easiest thing in human history to grow.
It’s like the seed, like poppy seeds are those tiny things in muffins. You just fucking throw them out there with no nothing, and if it’s in the right cli- it just grows like a weed. It’s insane, and it’s just so medicinally powerful. It’s just… I love that one. But I know that’s a boring answer, so I’m trying to think of like a like a more obscure one that’s like cool.
I think, ashwagandha I think is quite cool. I think blue lotus is weird. I think the story of blue lotus is cool because this, like everyone’s into blue lotus now, and you can buy blue lotus like literally everywhere on the internet, and the funny thing is that none of it is real blue lotus.
Like it’s, none of it is true Nymphaea caerulea. It’s a different Nymphaea ce- It, that’s its own drama basically. But true ancient Egyptian blue lotus is pretty much extinct in its natural habitat, and is the m- hardest thing to find. I have it here, and it took me a while to find it. It was pre- And it’s expensive.
It’s very expensive. And the active compounds are like, Like its uses I don’t think have been totally explored fully, but the high is pretty shit from my understanding. It’s pretty dog shit. So that one’s cool. Yeah, there’s so many, man. There’s so many. I think mapacho is sick. They use mapacho in Colombia I’m sure, yeah?
Sam Believ: There’s the… it’s available in the jungle as well. They use, they actually, for shamanistic purposes, they also use a lot of normal tobacco. Just- Really? … just the rolled… Yeah The,
Metta Beshay: They use it’s like the stuff that you in- inhale
Sam Believ: No, you still not inhale it. It’s a s- like a cigar-looking tobacco.
And there is there is tobacco called Piel roja, which contains mapacho. That’s the one my, my shaman likes to use.
And it’s like a very strong cigarette. You don’t inhale it. But they use a mapacho mostly in rapé, like the… Have you tried rapé?
Metta Beshay: I’ve had, I, I had an achuar guy do a version of rapé.
No, not proper rapé, but I’ve had tobacco stuffed in my nose very-
Sam Believ: Yeah …
Metta Beshay: forcefully. Yeah.
Sam Believ: Some of it is basically pure mapacho, so it’s very strong.
Metta Beshay: Yeah, that’s what I had done. But I- Yeah. That was rough.
Sam Believ: Yeah, I like mapacho. It’s it has a nice sort of taste to it.
Metta Beshay: Really?
Sam Believ: In a way, yeah. The, at least the one that I’ve been given.
Metta Beshay: God, I hate mapacho. I love it ’cause it’s so fun botanically, but it’s just it’s so bad. It’s so strong. It’s… Oh, my God. I will say though that during a cere- I don’t like mapacho outside of a ceremony, but in a ceremony, inhaling tobacco smoke just feels so crude. But when you do t- mapacho in your mouth, it feels much cleaner.
So it’s a weird… they got secrets. They know the ways.
Sam Believ: So I’m a cigar smoker, so I on- I don’t ever inhale anything. Oh. So I smoke it as a cigar. So it’s it’s pretty good for that. But I know it’s not a plant, it’s a mushroom, but I know you also talked about the Super Mario mushroom, the amanita
Metta Beshay: muscaria.
Yeah, amanitas. Yeah. You
Sam Believ: like that?
Metta Beshay: No. I do not like amanita muscaria. I think it’s gorgeous. I think it’s a beautiful plant or a, a fungus, but- Ugh, I don’t like it. I don’t… That’s one of those plants that you really do either love it or hate it. ‘Cause the people that I get my Amanita from, who are very sweet people and that’s their whole life, they are obsessed with it.
They are like, “This is my life. It changed my life.” Most other people are like, “This is a terrible high. I don’t get it.” Yeah. Do you like it?
Sam Believ: No, I’ve never tried it. It’s interestingly, it’s it’s all over my culture. In Eastern Europe, like- Totally … a lot of fair- a lot of fairytales are about mushrooms and bears eating mushrooms, and it’s there’s a lot of mentions of it, so it’s obviously, it’s been used shamanically also and traditionally.
I’ve never tried it, but I would be open to try. I think it’s probably more than 1,000 years old, so I’m cool with that.
Metta Beshay: Yeah, you think you’re in the clear. What what… D- is there any… What part of, What, what country in Eastern Europe are you from?
Sam Believ: I’m from Latvia.
Metta Beshay: Lat- oh, sick. Awesome. Is there any traditional shamanism retained, or is it all Christianized?
Sam Believ: So an, an interesting fact for you is that Latvia, or this region before it was called Latvia, it was called Livonia. It was the last pagan country in Europe.
Metta Beshay: Oh, cool.
Sam Believ: The, they came and they beat the shit out of them to make them Christians. Yeah,
Metta Beshay: as they do.
Sam Believ: It- … Teutonic order, tho- those Germans with big helmets.
Metta Beshay: Yes.
Sam Believ: So the tradition remained, and they kinda mixed a lot of… for example, one of the s- main celebrations up to this day, it’s called Līgo. It’s on the summer solstice, so it’s still very shamanic, and a part of the tradition, you jump over the fire, and then you go to the forest to find a a flower of a fern, which does not exist technically, but
Metta Beshay: it’s like- Yeah, it doesn’t.
Yeah. Th- they’re not angiosperms, so yes …
Sam Believ: it’s kinda I think it’s kinda excuse to go to the forest to have sex. The- … I’ve been told that when I was already grown up. But it’s very paganistic tradition. Actually, they… sauna tradition that people think it’s just from Finland, it’s actually from this entire North Eastern Europe area, and a part of the tradition obviously is heat and cold, which is kinda like temazcal or Inipi, so it’s very earth connected.
But they also use different plants in there, like masculine plants, feminine plants. So in a way it’s very similar to Amazonian tradition, but just you don’t… You have different plants. So a lot of it- … still survived, and actually my first ever arguably psychedelic or out-of-body experience was in that sauna ritual- Where it’s like they put, they heat you up so much and then they pull you in the cold water, and then you float as they hold your shoulders.
Then you stop feeling your body, and eventually there’s like nothing left, and you’re kinda out of your body in a way. It was pretty cool.
Metta Beshay: That’s pretty sick. That might be an excuse to go to Latvia.
Sam Believ: You should check it out. I haven’t been to Latvia for more than eight years. I wouldn’t go now.
It’s too close to Russia. There’s can be war- That’s true … any moment.
Metta Beshay: That’s true.
Sam Believ: That’s true. Don’t recommend. Come to Colombia instead, even though people are afraid to come here now because of Venezuela, but it’s like they don’t get it’s so far away.
Metta Beshay: Yeah. I’m not… I think I’m going to Cuba next, so I think I’m going p- my, my, my tour is going Peru, then Cusco, Peru, and then I’m going Brazil, Cuba for cigars, and then I’m thinking I’m gonna go to Paraguay to study with the Guarani and their whole relationship with yerba mate and stevia- weirdly enough. So yeah, I… There’s… Latin America, if you’re into ethnobotany-
Sam Believ: Yeah …
Metta Beshay: kind of heaven. It’s kind of heaven.
Sam Believ: The we have we have plenty of plants, and people come. It’s like, “Oh, did you know this is psychedelic plant? Did you know this is psychedelic plant?” And it’s just ornamental plants, just pretty plants.
So they’re all over here. Everything that, like every second plant has some kind of psychedelic in it.
Metta Beshay: Do what, what other, So besides ayahuasca and rapé do… is there any other less common plants like yopo or, or-
Sam Believ: So yopo is very common in Colombia as well. The datura, they also use it in some traditions.
Metta Beshay: Okay.
There is- Do they call it towe or do they call it datura?
Sam Believ: They call it borrachero.
Metta Beshay: Oh, really?
Sam Believ: Yeah.
Metta Beshay: Interesting. That’s a weird word. Okay.
Sam Believ: A lot of things are, have different names, but they’re still same. It’s it’s, the devil trumpet, the, the beautiful flower.
Metta Beshay: Yep. Yep. Solanine. Yeah.
Sam Believ: And then there’s some areas they grow a lot of mushrooms.
Then Dennis McKenna, like when they went to Colombia to the jungle they were exploring this other plant that’s like very, like hidden tradition. I forgot its name, but it’s like a paste that you chew. Honestly there’s many. I don’t know much. I’m just focused on Ayahuasca.
Like Ayahuasca here is called Yagé actually. Colombian name for Ayahuasca is Yagé.
Metta Beshay: Yagé.
And
Sam Believ: it’s like my… Like I understand that you’re an explorer and a psychonaut, and you wanna learn about a lot of things.
My perspective is like you can drink Ayahuasca for the rest of your life, and you have so much information, like you can’t even figure this one plant out.
So I’m kinda trying to focus on one, and I kinda don’t like the retreats that like offer you Ayahuasca one day and then San Pedro, and then mushrooms, and then combo, and then-
Metta Beshay: Oh, I didn’t know that was a thing. They… Wait, they’ll offer them combo? Are you serious?
Sam Believ: Yeah. There’s places that it’s a s- like a buffet of psychedelics kinda, and I kinda don’t like that approach.
And my shaman, he also like, “That’s what we do. Rape if you want to outside of ceremony, but apart from that we just stick to Ayahuasca.”
Metta Beshay: Wow. God I might do combo and I- that’s when I’m not… I’ll do it for the video, but I’m like, “I don’t wanna do this.” That
Sam Believ: shit’s hard. Combo’s real good. I’ve done a lot of it.
It’s, I don’t know if you can see my combo.
Metta Beshay: Oh, shit. Oh, wow. He likes combo. That’s crazy.
Sam Believ: Yeah, I know. And most of those are repeated and I’m trying to make like a little beautiful tattoo with combo.
Metta Beshay: That’s pretty cool. I do it- Wait, so what was it like for you?
Sam Believ: I do it because I have allergies.
And if I do combo, my allergies go away, so it’s kinda like it… I don’t do it for any mental effects or spiritual effects. It’s just good for like physical health. It just doesn’t- Oh, so are
Metta Beshay: you… When you’re doing it, are you just doing one whole or are you doing like
Sam Believ: three? No. I do seven or eight sometimes.
It’s in-
Metta Beshay: Oh, so you feel it? You get high?
Sam Believ: You feel like you’re dying. You’re puking and like you’re dying, but only for 15 minutes. After that you feel amazing.
Metta Beshay: Oh, God.
Sam Believ: Yeah. I would never offer it to people at the retreat. Never say never, but I haven’t so far because I’m convinced that if you give it to 1,000 people- At least one will die.
Metta Beshay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s my big
Sam Believ: concern too. So that’s why we’re good. Yeah. ‘Cause we’ve already given ayahuasca to about close to 3,000 people, so if I would h-have combo, it probably would’ve killed a couple, so
Metta Beshay: that would be more- Yeah. Que- question. I’m a, I’m about to I’m, like, kinda helping some older people, some very old people do ayahuasca, and I’m a little concerned ’cause they’re old as shit, and obviously I’ve seen old people do it before, but they’re not from this culture.
How do you deal with that? So I… What I’ve gotten to make sure that they’re safe is I’ve gotten their complete medication list of the medications they take, and then also any health concerns that they might have. Is there any red flags with old people that you’re like, “I don’t think you should do it,” or do, or is it usually fine?
Sam Believ: So we’ve had more than 10 people that are, like, 70 plus. Okay. And I think we had one person 80 plus, and they do great. They do fine. They just do more purging because their accumulation of stuff is just bigger.
Metta Beshay: Okay.
Sam Believ: If if they can run run a sprint or just they have a good car- cardiac output, they’ll be fine.
Metta Beshay: Okay.
Sam Believ: The problem is that old people generally just die. And if they die at an ayahuasca retreat, not because ayahuasca is bad, but just because it, it puts tension on your system-
…
Sam Believ: Then they’ll probably blame ayahuasca for it. But,
Metta Beshay: Naturally,
Sam Believ: yeah … ask them if they can do, like a, do a little run around the block.
If they’re fit enough to run around or just car- cardiantly s- fit, I think they’ll be fine. Okay. And just start with a smaller dose. You don’t give them double cup, you gotta… That’s what we do. My shaman is very careful, and he starts with small amount. And so th-they’ll be fine.
We’ve had plenty of old people. They have- Okay. Okay … good experience. The oldest shaman in Colombia that just died, he was 110 years old, still serving medicine.
Metta Beshay: Jeez.
Sam Believ: That’s great. So it’s definitely not bad for the age. Cool, Metta. So we’re coming close to an hour. I think it was a fun conversation.
It was. Time
Metta Beshay: flies.
Sam Believ: Yeah, man … tell people more about you and what’s your YouTube channel, and I highly recommend to check it out. It’s it’s a lot of fun.
Metta Beshay: It is Metta Beshay. M-E-T-T-A B-E-S-H-A-Y, Metta Beshay, and that’s pretty much everything. You can find me on Instagram. I post stupid stories there.
And it’s just YouTube is my main thing. So yeah.
Sam Believ: We’ll link to you Metta. Thank you so much for the episode.
Metta Beshay: Thank
Sam Believ: you. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we do, the host Sam Beliv, and I’ll see you in the next episode. Sweet. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.
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